I was put in my place by a mother on Friday. This doesn’t happen often as I rarely venture my opinions on child-rearing to parents.
This woman is disgruntled about her 21-year-old daughter’s recent conversion to vegetarianism, which she sees as yet another silly youthful fad (along with her dismaying lesbianism). She can’t reconcile the fact that her daughter objects to the slaughtering of animals for food but is simultaneously pro-choice, which means she advocates the ‘killing’ of babies. What was our opinion on all of this?
After discussing the ethical side of things for a bit, my colleague – who has a 6-month-old baby – ranted in a youth-of-today! fashion about how he’ll never over-indulge his daughter, how he won’t put up with any faddy shite from his future teenagers, how his word will rule in their house – any stupid ‘phases’ and he’ll show them the door. I proffered just one opinion, about the vegetarianism:
I’d probably tell her she can make her own dinners if she doesn’t want to eat what everyone else is having
The woman digested this. Then, clearly annoyed, faced me down and said:
I’ll just say one thing to you: until you’re in that situation and you have children, you can’t really say what you would do or judge anyone else for how they deal with it
Hang on – I get it in the neck but my colleague, a new dad, doesn’t? That makes no sense whatsoever. Is he more qualified to talk about the subject than I am because he’s had a baby for half a year, do you think?
This woman has expressed some insecurity about the fact that she has dedicated two decades of her life to being a full time stay-at-home mum (and still does pretty much everything for her adult kids) and I realise the comment is probably a projection of that. She’s also told me several times that I’m lucky not to have any offspring.
It’s a low blow to take your frustrations out on the easiest target in the room, though. This is one of the rare occasions that I really wanted to say:
STFU, parent
I will next time.
And if anyone has a good argument to back up the pro-choice, veggie lesbian daughter’s convictions, let me know what it is because I’m 100% on her side.
My argument in favor of the 21 year old would simply be, she’s 21 years old. She’s an adult who can make her own decisions. It doesn’t matter if her mother can reconcile vegetarianism with being pro-choice because as long as it makes sense to her daughter, the one who is practicing both things. If I were her daughter I think I would be most offended at my sexual orientation being labeled as a “phase.”
Also, I flippin’ HATE when parents say that we (the childfree) don’t know what we’d do in a a given situation because we don’t have kids. That’s like saying anyone who hasn’t experienced a tornado can’t have an opinion on what they’d do IF they experienced one.
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I totally agree, surely we can hypothesise on any subject, like normal people? I’ve been 21, and I’m pretty sure my mother would have said I could make my own meals
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The reason the new dad got away with his comments was because he was agreeing with her, even though he was a complete idiot. She obviously believes her daughter isn’t capable of independent thought. I HATE when people believe pro choice is murdering babies or whatever nonsense. It is simply saying I don’t know what your circumstances are and because of that I do not want to dictate what you must do now or for the next 18+ years of your life. Sheesh. You handled this well. My mouth would have started before I knew what I was doing.
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Ha, I hadn’t thought of it like that about why she didn’t have a go at the dad… you’re right there
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It really sucks when “parents” take out their frustrations on “non-parents”…as far as the “pro-choice, veggie lesbian daughter’s convictions” these are obviously a reflection of something stemming from a childhood trauma, most likely perpetrated by her Mother…(sarcasm off) 😉
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I’ll have to suggest that to the mother when I see her next (ha) …. But seriously, I did want to say, “Ok, I’ll leave you in peace to screw up your kids on your own then”!
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I can’t think of a great argument, but I’m on her side too. Good on her.
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How about – “How wonderful that your daughter is mature and intelligent enough to realize and defend her convictions at such a young age – what a strong woman she must be!”
This comment is always intriguing to me because I find there is a lot more judgement from parents, than from any non-parent I know. I think it’s partly due to insecurities, and perhaps a little bit of superiority? I’m not sure…but even the most wonderful people I know, who are parents, are usually quick to judge other parents. Far more often than any non-parent I know. So then I think parents are a little sensitive, especially when advice is coming from a non-parent who they deem not qualified (it begs to ask why she even asked you, then, if she was just going to shoot down your advice?). It doesn’t make it okay though and I think “STFU Parent” is a great response. 🙂
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I love that suggestion! Especially since the daughter sounds so much more intelligent than the mother, and she’s obviously insecure about that
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i wonder if the lesbianism and the vegetarianism are connected?
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She has it on good authority that genuine lesbians are vegan
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They both sound pretty terrified as parents to be honest. My mom has always seemed very uncomfortable about who my sister and I have become and talk behind each of our backs about that… And the best thing I can think of to say is, hey you raised an independent, free thinking young woman and you should be proud of that. None of us are who our parents expected us to be, and that doesn’t have to be a bad thing.
I am guessing that the guy who thinks he knows everything with a 6 month old is getting lots of laughs from people with older children who probably said the same thing. Everyone going into something new, whether it be parenthood or any other type of relationship or long-term commitment in life, thinks they know how they’re going to handle things and are often surprised at how they change. While I don’t have children, I have ideas about what I think is right and wrong and how I think I would handle a situation, but I also know that I can’t predict the future, and that I’m not perfect. No one knows exactly what they’ll do in a situation until they’re placed in it, and just because they are parents doesn’t mean they know what they’re going to do any more than those who are not parents. I laugh at the father with the six month old because you hear that so often and then you see them completely caving in in later years (which in his case wouldn’t be such a bad thing since it sounds like he would kick his own flesh and blood out for not eating the same food as him which is terrifying to see the someone like him is breeding and would say that about their child…).
I remember when a former friend of mine (one who ghosted me during IVF) had found out from her daughter that she was transgender and identified as male, and was having a cow about it… Yet refused to do anything to actually learn about what her child was going through, or get counseling herself (not for her kid), because she had this assumption that she knew everything because she was a mother. Part of that is her issue and part of it I will actually a tribute to society because they all tell people that when they become mothers they will suddenly be endowed with this great knowledge that non mothers don’t have… which I think makes it a vicious cycle because when they don’t know what to do, they rarely admit it at a feeling like they are failures if they don’t have all the answers (and particularly if someone who doesn’t have children offers them ideas).
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I think you hit the nail on the head when you say they sound terrified. They are floundering badly with this scary, super-intelligent daughter (the mother is constantly saying her daughter is much brainier than she is, which is why she asked us for an argument to present to her on the vegetarianism/pro-choice stance). I agree that society doesn’t help in promoting this idea that everything will fall into place when you become a mother, and you’ll have some instinctive new understanding – but you’re just as confused as you were before you had kids, I imagine. You’re right about the dad – I predict that his little girl will wrap him around her little finger, I’d put money on it.
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I hate it when people act in such an irrational way. Like someone said, she said that because you didn’t eagerly agree with her. I have kids, and I would do exactly as you suggested if one of them wanted to be vegan. My husband and I are vegetarians anyway, and also pro-choice (though in my country the abortion debate is not nearly as intense as I understand it is in the US, and pro-choice is the default position).
My main reason for being vegetarian is that I’m anti-torture (modern animal farming IS torture, plain and simple), not because I’m vehemently against killing animals. The daughter in question may have other reasons for veganism than absolute “you shall not kill” attitude, like mine, or environmental reasons. That said, I find it hard to understand why anyone would want to question someone’s decision to be vegan. We should rather question people’s decision to eat meat, given the environmental and inhumane consequences of meat and milk production.
As for being pro-choice, I always say that we have already tried a society where abortion was prohibited, and that led to unspeakable and unnecessary suffering. So for practical reasons, we cannot ban abortion. I just does not work. (Of course, there are also very strong human rights reasons to not ban abortion, but I find that the practicality argument often works better).
I’m sorry you had to deal with such inconsiderate people. Your co-worker (the dad) sounds like a douchebag.
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Thanks for an interesting comment; I was happy to hear you’d do the same as I suggested! The first thought I also had was that the daughter knows her stuff about modern farming methods and has environmental concerns about meat production. The mother should do some good research and she might find out that it’s not only about a reluctance to eat fluffy farmyard animals! I’m sure that’s what she thinks at the moment.
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I hate it when people act in such an irrational way. Like someone said, she said that because you didn’t eagerly agree with her. I have kids, and I would do exactly as you suggested if one of them wanted to be vegan. My husband and I are vegetarians anyway, and also pro-choice (though in my country the abortion debate is not nearly as intense as I understand it is in the US, and pro-choice is the default position).
My main reason for being vegetarian is that I’m anti-torture (modern animal farming IS torture, plain and simple), not because I’m vehemently against killing animals. The daughter in question may have other reasons for veganism than absolute “you shall not kill” attitude, like mine, or environmental reasons. That said, I find it hard to understand why anyone would want to question someone’s decision to be vegan. We should rather question people’s decision to eat meat, given the environmental and inhumane consequences of meat and milk production.
As for being pro-choice, I always say that we have already tried a society where abortion was prohibited, and that led to unspeakable and unnecessary suffering. So for practical reasons, we cannot ban abortion. I just does not work. (Of course, there are also very strong human rights reasons to not ban abortion, but I find that the practicality argument often works better).
I’m sorry you had to deal with such inconsiderate people. Your co-worker (the dad) sounds like a douchebag.
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I would give you thoughts, but that woman showed that she is small minded and close minded. Predicting your own behavior is a matter of how well you know yourself, not how well you know the situation. To say you will not know until you are in that situation, is to say I react to things with out thinking on some level.
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I like that!
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Oh people. I think your comment that the daughter could simply make her own meals was the most sensible of the lot. Anyway she’s 21 so she might as well start doing that anyway if she hasn’t already. I try to avoid giving advice because 1) people don’t usually want it or 2) they say they want it but they really don’t. There are exceptions but I try to assume that either 1 or 2 applies.
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Good rules to remember – I think you’re right there
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Having never successfully procreated, those of us without children simply don’t have enough life experience to form rational thoughts or to venture our opinions, which we’re not entitled to anyway.
Seriously though, what an awful woman! I’m floored. She’s clearly just projecting her own insecurities and feelings of failure and you just happened to be an easy target. I’m sorry.
– Signed, a childless, pro-life vegetarian
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Thank you! It’s hard in the moment to keep a cool head and remember that people are projecting
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Well put, particularly about projecting her own fears. I think the “have you ever considered…” type of question back to those folks often is the best type of response, because while we’re not going to change them (telling them to F off will only isolate them more), but sometimes just putting a question out there (not looking for a response) to give them permission to open their minds can do so, so much.
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I like that idea
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Also, I do like how you characterize the different types of people here (including yourself) it’s very entertaining reading. Maybe I shouldnt laugh at the new dad with his “kid these days” comments: I’m sure I’ve made them and I like to fancy that there will be no trendy bs in my house. Realistically though, if parents want kids to “share” (or at least respect) their “values” (nobody is or should be a carbon copy of each other) the single most effective way to do that is to…..explain why you have them. My parents certainly did their share of “this is my house and you’ll do as I say” stuff, but that was never their most effective line. They were at their best when they told stories of where they came from, who they were and why they chose to live their lives as they did. And those stories were nothing to laugh at: I am here because many people survived war, famine, totalitarian rule, imprisonment, disease, fleeing as refugees, terrorism, religious cults, um I’m probably missing something. Whether or not I agreed with them, I always understood WHY they believed and behaved as they did. And always they admitted “we’ve made mistakes and we don’t know everything but we did our best.” That’s powerful stuff. And I knew that before I had kids, so there. Being a petty tyrant works for *no one*: there are many ideas out that youth can and will learn (and not just vegetarianism, ha). Your friend does not and cannot control her kids, neither can the young dad…..respect is earned and learned.
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Thanks Torthuil. It sounds like you have an interesting heritage… My parents ran their household in a purely totalitarian way: we did as they said, didn’t answer back or give opinions; my dad was tyrannical and ruled by fear. I still don’t really understand why, other than that he was damaged. He is now having total culture shock with his second, younger family/stepkids who regularly roar at him and call him a ‘f***ing ballbag’ – feels a bit like retribution.
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Yikes. Asa childfree by choice I empathize with fragile mama and papa bears. Sorry you got bit. I became a vegetarian in 8th grade and my mom offered exactly what you said: she was fine with it and said I cook for myself. It all worked out. Imagine that? Haha
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I too cooked for myself when I went veggie as a teenager; I’m now a great cook so everyone’s happy!
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Hooray! 🙂
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I know you know this…but you don’t have to be a rocket scientist to be a parent and you also don’t have to pass an exam or obtain a license…hmmm…although sometimes I think you should. Pure ignorance, plain and simple…sure it’s hard to walk away, but walk away you must…wasting your time and efforts on fools is foolish….Good for you and good for that 21 year old…forging her own way in this crazy world.
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Ugh, I cringed when reading the whole tirade from the parent of the 21 year old and the ‘nearly new’ parent of the 6 month old… and I certainly cringed some more hearing the disgusting words the angry mother of the 21 year old said to you!
Since when has it become acceptable to request an opinion (which was clearly a guise to vent her spleen with some cutting remark to try and make you feel as bad as she is feeling) then go off on a tangent and be hostile and aggressive towards the innocent commentator? It sounds like she deliberately set you up just so she could have a pop at you – kudos to the daughter for winding her mother up, because mother sounds like she richly deserves it!
I’d have been tempted to say being vegan and pro choice doesn’t mean you like eating babies, but that’s probably a bridge too far!
Your comment was perfectly reasonable and non-biased, given that you were 21 once. Her whole rant/whatever it was smacks of the passive aggressive turning into aggressive.
I find an enigmatic smile and raise of the eyebrows often makes others I’ve come across in similar situations snort in frustration and storm off or simply embarrass themselves further by losing their rag.
She sounds like a piece of work, I’d be tempted to steer clear of her and when she asks for opinions and tries to shut you down again say you’re feeling like she’s trying to shut you down and maybe that’s how her daughter feels too, I’d also add if she didn’t want your opinion then don’t request one and you won’t proffer? Grrrrrrr!
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The description of the daughter gave me flashes back to my own youth. Agreeing with everyone above. The new dad didn’t get landblasted because he was siding with the frustrated mother. But the other element is that the mother has likely been told recently by the daughter that she wishes she had another mother. Maybe not directly, but definitely in a way that leaves this frustrated mother with a terrible fear of being left. Hence when you defended the daughter, even in the most neutral of manners, she lost it because it reminded her of that fear.
Now, a mature adult would sit down with your comment, breathe deeply and answer “you have some good points that I hadn’t considered.” But what you got shows you the degree of emotional immaturity you are dealing with. Because for this mother, and this dad, it’s not about them helping their children thrive. It’s really all about them.
And now I wonder what would happen if the daughter came home and announced she was making it her life mission to address climate change and its impact on the world.
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Interesting insight about their relationship – she has in fact expressed a lot of hurt about how her daughter has ignored her/rejected her in the past when she was a teenager. I imagine all those fears are surfacing. I love you perceptive people!
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As a woman who never had children, I get this thrown at me all the time. I have opinions on many things that ‘I have never been or done’. If being what you talk about is the criteria for having or expressing opinions, we would all have a pretty limited capacity for conversation.
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We wouldn’t even be able to have the auld “if I won the lottery…” conversation. Life would be dull.
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Oh holy jeezum. I hate when people bring up things, in a CONVERSATION, and then are mad when you offer an opinion different from theirs. Don’t ask then, or bring it up in conversation! I love the STFU, parent response but would never have the balls to say it. I liked Raven’s response and funkysquishydonut’s responses, because yeah — the daughter’s an adult. I feel like being pro-choice is less about “murdering babies” and more about not pushing your beliefs on someone else and respecting that THAT is a situation you don’t really know what you’d do until you were in it, I think. Huh, sounds familiar… heh heh heh. And I’m not vegan but I don’t eat lamb because I can’t help but think of the cute little bouncy lambs at the farm near my school, but somehow to me there’s a difference between a fully formed creature going to a slaughterhouse for which it was raised and ending a pregnancy early because you are not prepared to parent or whatever reason it might be. SLIGHTLY different I think.
It drives me CRAZY when people are given credence in their opinions just for being parents, even if it’s for such a short time. I have been in meetings when fellow teachers have said, “well, as a parent …” as if it gives more weight to their advice or recommendations, and I just want to scream “WE TEACH THIRTEEN YEAR OLDS! YOUR KIDS ARE UNDER FIVE!” Because somehow experience teaching an age group doesn’t count as much as parenting any age child? Grrrr. I agree that this lady didn’t shut down the father of the 6 month old because he agreed with her. Some people just want to hear their own perspectives parroted back to them, they don’t actually want to hear a different point of view. I’m sorry this happened to you, it’s beyond irritating and such a slap in the face. (Also really love funkysquishydonut for the tornado example, I’m going to hang on to that one for future use!)
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That would drive me mad as a teacher to hear that. I would personally trust the opinion of a childfree professional who has long experience working with children over a parent any day, or at least give it equal weight. As for animals, I will admit that as an occasional meat-eater I do have some perhaps irrational arguments against eating horse and pony – I was always being offered them in Italy and they never accepted my protestations.
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I don’t have too much to add to the conversation – the commenters upthread covered it. Both coworkers seem really immature. Wouldn’t it be great if we could pick who we worked with?
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I forgot to include the most important part! I’m so sorry you had to endure this! No one liked a dressing down. Your coworker violated a boundary.
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*likes
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Oh, good grief! What an over-reaction she had. I’m so sorry you had to be on the other end of this.
But I had a few thoughts about why she might have acted differently between wonder-dad-of-six-months, and you. First is that he’s a guy, and a lot of women don’t like arguing with men. Secondly, he’s a dad, and they often have stricter approaches towards children (in theory at least). Third was that he was talking about what he’d do for his daughter, and you made a gentle and practical comment about how you would have reacted to her daughter. So she felt defensive – perhaps because she knew that she was still trying to treat her daughter as a child? (After all, I agree with the others – your suggestion was very sensible, and easily implemented.) I’ve found many parents very easily go on the defensive, and of course, attack is the best form of defence, isn’t it? Our childlessness sadly makes us easy targets. And that sucks.
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She’s told us that she still ‘babies’ her kids, both over-18: it’s definitely a sore area for her…
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That comment was so uncalled for! Were you just meant to stand there and say nothing?! Next time I hope you do say something back. I’m also on the side of the daughter. If someone cares about animals and decides to go vegetarian then good for them! It has absolutely nothing to do with being pro-choice, what an odd connection to make?! I’m not even sure how you go about trying to make people like that see sense.
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I actually did bumble a response; I think I said: “well you obviously have a problem with her vegetarianism and you were asking!”. Then I just shut down as I usually do, and stared at my screen…
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I probably would have done the same thing about shutting down. It’s not worth reasoning with stupid. You did the right thing.
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Urgh! I have many stories like these … us idiots who don’t know anything about kids or how to handle a grown child. :::rolling eyes:::
When I was struggling with infertility, I was not only emotionally distraught over that, but I was having serious issues with my husband’s family. They were not nice to me. His brothers wives told me they didn’t understand why their kids loved me so much because I knew nothing about children. I had a specific story I started to write, but this is a long comment already.
Anyway, to help me deal these issues back then, I saw a therapist. The therapist told me that the kids loved me because I DID know about kids. She said that my SIL’s were likely jealous of my relationship with their children.
The therapist also told me that because we’re not in the midst of the drama, we can see things more clearly than the parent.
I have a million stories of what happened to me in my infertility days, so I hope you don’ t mind my taking up comment boxes when you post the things I’ve experienced.
The bottom-line here is, and this is my opinion from my own hard experiences, is that many parents are so caught up in their children’s worlds that they don’t look within at their own behavior. NOT having children is what caused me to look within at my own shortcomings. It’s basically what I write and blog about, Introspection for all people, including parents.
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Oh my… I am sorry you’ve been treated this way! Why does she even talk to you about this if she doesn’t want to hear your response? It doesn’t seem fair.
I admit that I am a bit like you – I usually don’t give my opinion on other people’s kids. I’m too afraid of being told that I have no right to say anything because I lack experience :-(… even though I suppose that in general, someone from the outside can always make a valuable contribution because those in the situation lack the distance to see things clearly themselves. But raising kids can be quite a sensitive topic for those involved so I’d rather stay clear…
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Same here…
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So I do have kids, and I would have said the exact same thing you have told her, and if it were my kid that is what I would have done (and what I do say if I get complaints about what I am fixing for dinner.)
So really, just consider the source. But what an asshat to say that to you in response. Completely uncalled for, and I am sorry you had to be on the receiving end of her ignorance.
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Thanks Charlotte!
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There are certain phrases that people can say that let me know I’m not interested in talking to them ever. “Until you have children” is one of them. What a rude co-worker. She didn’t need to take her unhappiness out on you. And the guy? Roll my eyes. Ok dude, good luck with all of that. I am sorry you had to encounter them.
But that image at the top of your post! It’s awesome!!! Is it a drawing? Is it conte crayon? It is a very interesting piece of art. I like it a lot.
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Hey Phoenix thanks… I’m probably using that image illegally: it’s a photo of a large canvas or a print of a canvas) that was outside a museum I went to in Italy. I think the artist is THOMAS LANGE or Mutsuo Hirano (edited).
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Wow, that woman’s response to you was SO uncalled for. Like several other comments, I think your suggestion was an entirely reasonable and a practical way of dealing with the situation. I’m sorry you had to endure that.
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Thank you for that!
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Oh good grief. It’s harsh enough to hear this at all, but hearing it after being solicited for an opinion – seriously? It’s so bad it’s almost funny. Especially seeing that your opinion was entirely reasonable.
This would feel diminishing to the toughest of us, and I admire your ability to keep a perspective on where she might be coming from (feeling entrapped by parenthood). I’m also sorry you’ve had to endure the “you’re lucky” comment (as I suppose we all have). They way I personally feel about that is just because someone hasn’t been able to manage their good fortune in the kid/parenting department well doesn’t mean I should be doing jumping jacks over my lack of it.
While I feel the actions of being able to reproduce and connect well with children are not necessarily related, I do acknowledge there are a few specific situations where one parent may have to seek out another parent with similar experience (duly noted that having older children and having a six month old does not constitute similar experience). This should be done in a tactful, respectful way, not in a “lets just ask everyone and then admonish those who dare to answer who I don’t deem worthy” sort of low minded fashion.
It’s unfortunate that it’s still socially acceptable to publicly scold someone’s lack of parenthood, especially when so many of us did not choose our situations and since we have many other things of equal value to offer.
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Thank you, as usual you are spot on with your incisive and perceptive observations. “Scolded” is right – next time I’ll be ready with a better answer for her.
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What the heck?! What’s wrong with this woman other than believing her daughter exists only as a mere reflection of parenting skills? Other than the fact that she is obviously a repressive, obsessive ninny? Other than the fact that she…oh wait. I’ve answered my own questions.
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She definitely does’t seem to want her kids to be independent beings…
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Your blog is great. Looking forward to reading more.
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